Viewers were reminded of the Targaryen queen's past lovers at the The relationship of Khal Drogo and Daenerys has been ridiculously. From forbidden loves to incestual relationships, these are the best and worst couples in Westeros and beyond. They vented about their problems (Renly complaining about his TRICKY: Khal Drogo & Daenerys Targaryen. She went from a frightened child bride, terrified of the marriage that she was sold into But the problem is that there wasn't any development. So I say again, Daenerys Targaryen is an unrealistic character, and even her most .. I completely agree, never liked Khal Drogo, dothrakis, nor Dany after that.
My opponent has set the stage: His criteria boils down to: Marriage has the implication of sex via consummation, thus agreeing to be married equals agreeing to have sex. As a minor point this does not necessarily follow.
- Khal Drogo Did Not Rape Daenerys Targaryen
Agreeing to have sex, generally, is not an agreement to any specific act of sex. Regardless, my opponent asserts: The answer is no. The answer here is clearly yes. Yes - their marriage was consensual. She has three scenes in which she speaks. We will analyze each. Transcripts taken from here: Look — a gift from Illyrio. Illyrio is no fool. He pulls off her gown. She endures it as he strokes her breast. I need you to be perfect today. Can you do that for me?
Then, without provocation, Viserys threatens her. What does it mean? It means he beats her. So he's threatened to beat her unless she is "perfect" today. Well today is when she is presented to Khal Drogo, to gain his agreement to the marriage.
In short, Viserys is saying: Get Khal Drogo to marry you or I will beat you. Sansa was a Lannister hostage and forced to marry. Is Daenrys any difference? She is a "guest," yes, but not by choice.
She has no where to go and is effectively a hostage to her psychopath brother who just threatened to hurt her if she doesn't get married to Khal Drogo. Is that not forcing her to marry? I want to go home. I want us both to go home. But they took it from us. So tell me, sweet sister, how do we go home? We go home with an army. Here is her saying "No" to the entire ordeal. She did not say it to Khal Drogo, nor could she, but that is immaterial. She clearly objected and was against the very idea and only went along with it under threat of punishment and out of fear of her brother.
He also states his sister's value to him: And now, the final scene: A small gift for the new Khaleesi. Songs and histories from the Seven Kingdoms.
Are you from my country? Ser Jorah Mormont of Bear Island. I served your father for many years. Gods be good, I hope to always serve the rightful king. From the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai.
The ages have turned them to stone, but they will always be beautiful. The Dothraki crowd behind her as she goes. The KHAL leads her to a white mare. He touches the tears on her face. Do you know the Common Tongue? The threat of punishment goes unsaid. This is immediately before the "consummation," the consummation in which she cries in protest and attempts to cover up before being taken by a much more intimidating, physically stronger, Dothraki warlord.
Let's review my opponent's criteria again: I submit that all of my opponent's criteria have been met and that this must be classified as a rape. Pro I thank drafterman for an intelligent and substantive response. His case is almost exactly how I imagined a CON case would be for this resolution, and I am fully prepared to rebut it. Scene 1 Yes, Viserys Vis is an abusive prick.
This is evident in how Dany does indeed initially object to the marriage in scene 2. Somehow, from Vis being a prick, CON concludes that Dany never had a choice in anything, to include even where they are staying. A map of Essos shows that Vis and Dany had their pick of cities to choose from between Pentos and Vaes Dothrak, and probably chose Pentos simply because it was the closest city to King's Landing across the Narrow Sea: Vis treats Illyrio as if he's a future subject of his kingdom, not as a gracious host, and Illyrio most certainly does not treat Vis as if he had any real power over him.
They easily had their choice as to where they would stay and how they would manage their private affairs.
Debate Issue: Khal Drogo Did Not Rape Daenerys Targaryen | cypenv.info
This is very, very different from Sansa's situation. Sansa indeed had no choice in her marriage to Tyrion nor any choice about leaving King's Landing without Lannister approval. Well, it most certainly sounds like from the dialogue that Vis convinced Dany that his plan was the best chance they had to realize their dream of going home - never mind the snide comment at the end.
This, and not any visible threat, silenced Dany's objections, meaning that she was convinced of the logic of the plan, and agreed to it.
It's a fair trade - Drogo gets a bride with a name of tremendous worth, the Targaryens get their army, and Illyrio sends the Dothraki back to Vaes Dothrak peacefully, thus leaving Pentos unharmed. Scene 3 CON's purpose in bringing up this scene is only the last line, where Vis makes it clear that at this point, there is a lot riding pun intended on Dany's ability to perform. Vis's comment, while threatening, is no more threatening than having a contractual obligation hanging over your head that you've yet to meet.
And, this particular contract is exceptionally threatening - we know that Pentos routinely bribes the Dothraki in order to deter them from sacking the city http: In the forum thread attached in round 1, a very good example of skydiving was brought up. Once you jump out of that plane, there are certain steps you must take such as pulling the chord, or else your experience at skydiving will become fatal. Similarly, once this marriage was agreed upon, there were certain steps all parties involved had to take, else the experience would become fatal.
One of these steps was that the marriage had to be consummated, something that Dany agreed to do upon agreeing to the marriage. The real question to ask is did Dany jump off this particular plane? The answer is of course R2 To address CON's concluding remarks: That the marriage ceremony happened as a consequence clearly speaks to this.
Dany was not a slave. CON is stretching the significance of a rape scene between Cercei and Jaime to explain the interactions between Dany and Drogo. The two scenes are materially different.
The show does a very good job in depicting Dany's circumstances.Daenerys and Drogo love scene
In the very first scene of the second episode, we're treated to Dany's new lifestyle, all within 5 minutes of screentime - it consists of eating horse jerky, visible apprehension of Drogo, and getting carried off her horse almost on a stretcher.
IMHO this was a great choice by the show's producers to depict how hard it was for Dany to adjust to her new life, and is much, much more believable than the book's rendition of their night of consummation, where we're led to believe that Drogo, without any words, is able to seduce a woman he's never met over one evening without any wining or dining and get her to have sex with him in order to consummate a long-term arrangement like a marriage.
IMHO that's insulting to a woman's sensibilities and decision-making capabilities Conclusion My case stands - the marriage was consensual, agreeable to both Vis and Dany, and thus consummation was expected and consensual. This was not rape. My opponent has conceded that Daenrys objected to the marriage. However, my opponent then imagines that consent was somehow granted simply because Daenerys and her brother have the same goals and she lacks a different plan.
She was not convinced that Viserys plan was the way to go, she was intimidated into doing so. If I tell you to give me your money, and you refuse, and then I hold a gun to your head, and then you give me your money, did convince you to give me your money? You did it out of fear and intimidation and I would still be guilty of robbery. Viserys comments are not simply that he would not mind seeing his sister engage in an orgy - which is a passive statement - but that he would actively work to bring that about if it would get him what he wanted.
The takeaway here is that his sister has no free will that he recognizes and defiance will result in being physically abused.
At the end of the day we have explicit, irrefutable statement, agreed upon by my opponent that Daenerys objected to the marriage and nothing to suggest she changed her mind. She was bullied into silence. It is clear from dialogue that Daenerys is, essentially, a captive of her brother. Beyond the subordinate role of women in Westerosi society, Viserys clearly is domineering and controlling of his sister. In his mind he is already king and she is a subject that owes him complete obedience.
The idea that the mere existence of other cities means Daenerys was free to go is absurd. My opponent equates the situation with a contractual obligation that Daenrys must now oblige. He seems to have forgotten that Daenerys was threatened into this "contract" to begin with and contracts made under such circumstances are null and void.
Daenerys objected to the arrangement and went through with it under duress as a result of the threats of her brother. My opponent acknowledges that Viserys threatened Daenerys.
He futher asserts that Daenerys agreed to the marraige. Provide any scene in the show that demonstrates Daenerys' agreement to this marraige. All I see is her being threatened and intimidated into passively going along with what she has been forced into.
Furthermore, the mere existence of the marriage ceremony is proof of nothing, since you admit the forced marriage of Sansa to Tyrion does not permit him to have sex with her. Non-consent expressed, no consent ever expressed. In this situation, the clear and unequivical statement of non-consent trumps any perceived and unstated consent, especially since it relies solely on your assertion that it is obvious. You raised this point to demonstrate that the sexual act caused a divide between them, further reinforcing it as a non-consentual sex act.
I do the same here. Provide a single scene where Daenrys agreed to anything. The ends do not justify the means. For Viserys to threaten Dany at this point has nothing to do with whether or not she was coerced into the marriage to begin with - the marriage itself was a threatening affair, and Vis was simply adding emphasis to this point to ensure that Dany did not mess up.
CON's scene 3 point has been fully rebutted. But that leads me into my next point. Dany went through this major development of transforming from an abused and traumatized child into a sexually aware and confident character in With absolutely no journey to get there?
That would make sense. I would even be willing to move past her age and accept the development that she went through to reach this point. GRRM seemed more concerned with forcing an empowering moment for Daenerys forcing because it did not happen in a believable way that he was willing to suspend reality and believability and resort to romanticizing the tragedy of a child sold into marriage. By having Khal stroke her as if he was a lover engaging in a sexual act with another consenting adult that married him willingly; and having Dany respond as such, it glosses over the pain, fear, and tragedy of real child brides.
Nothing about a child being forced to marry an adult should ever be attempted to be portrayed as romantic. There are documentaries, books, interviews from dozens upon dozens of child bride survivors that GRRM could have used as research material before he wrote the insulting passage about Daenerys wedding night.
What he wrote is a slap on the face to real child brides world wide. The romanticizing of their horror. It is disturbing when people ooh and aah over Daenerys and Khal Drogo. But unfortunately, this is what GRRM encouraged by choosing to romanticize such a horrific situation.
And suddenly, something that should be looked upon with horror gets turned into a love story. So I say again, Daenerys Targaryen is an unrealistic character, and even her most human struggle being a child bride was turned into a fantasy from the beginning. Hers is a story that encourages fans to defend a child bride marriage rather than denouncing it.